It is currently Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:49 am



Reply to topic  [ 162 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
 All Stars Teams & Era teams request 
Author Message

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:51 pm
Posts: 619
pesman wrote:
Ok guys (girls???) post here your requests for classic teams, not anymore in classic section threads....

Also don't request 100 teams from once.


Well, as Pesman posted the Players request, I'll post this topic for the same but with teams

INDEX

Era Teams
Europe 00's | Done
Deportivo La Coruña 1999-2004 "El Eurodepor" | Done
Algeria 1982-1986 | In Progress
Queen's Park Rangers 1975-1976 | Done


All Stars
El Clásico All Stars | Done
Venezuela All-Stars | Done
Russia All Stars | Done
Football League/English Top League All Stars | Done
Arminia Bielefeld All Stars | Done
Sevilla FC All Stars | Done

Brasileirão All Stars | In progress
Argentinian Primera División All Stars | In progress
Primeira Liga All-Stars | In Progress
FIFA World Cup All-Stars | In Progress


Last edited by Cristiano_Naniano on Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 19 times in total.



Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:17 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:26 am
Posts: 3112
Location: Aragua De Barcelona, Venezuela
Bola Clássica wrote:
El Capo wrote:
Let's make it separates, for countries/regions (Like England', Iberian Peninsula', Brazil, etc.)



For Brazil is tough to say, since that we have to set first what is national/top league there. This decision is always polemic and may vary according opinions.

Or the forum can go for the corrupted institution that rules in Brazil's football (CBF) and just follow what they say. As I know you guys watch over more for the truth instead of politics and those things, this would be the first step job here.


I'll probably take this as reference to make it relatively easier IMO.


Milos wrote:
If you don't count national cups, then Miloš Milutinović belongs to this group too. And every single Velež Mostar and OFK Belgrade legend. Vujadin Boškov, Todor Veselinović too. I guess there can be Ex Yugoslavia in regions then.


National Cups don't affect the selection, the only criteria should be if they ever won the top league of their home country after playing at least something like 1-2 full seasons (Otherwise Ronaldo, who won twice the Copa do Brazil, wouldn't be selected for a Brazil thread).


Last edited by El Capo on Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:47 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
El Capo wrote:
I'll probably take this as reference to make it relatively easier IMO.


Well, very controversy list I would say. It is the official CBF titles (lot of politics). Before 1971 there were no Brazilian top league.

Some clubs (mainly Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo clubs) even used to give priority for the state championship and Rio-SP tournament over Taça Brasil (a championship that you could won only playing for 4 or 6 matches).

Years later, some politics just signed some papers to make those championships to be considered as Brazilian Championship.

Maybe it would make sense for Roberto Gomes Pedrosa's championships, but Taça Brasil should not be considered more than a Brazilian Cup (Copa do Brasil).

Anyway, I guess you can consider this list but (to be fair), at least the Flamengo's 87 title has to be included though. You can also consider Sport as the champion of 87 but it wouldnt make any difference in terms of players to be selected.

Well it is a very complicated topic to approach all the aspects here but it is part of Brazilian football. Unfortunately only a few people has knowledge enough to talk about it.

Also, the Brazilian football history has been erased constantly by idiots that only think about rivarlery as those political decisions are in favor some clubs and harm others.


Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:09 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:26 am
Posts: 3112
Location: Aragua De Barcelona, Venezuela
Bola Clássica wrote:
El Capo wrote:
I'll probably take this as reference to make it relatively easier IMO.


Well, very controversy list I would say. It is the official CBF titles (lot of politics). Before 1971 there were no Brazilian top league.

Some clubs (mainly Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo clubs) even used to give priority for the state championship and Rio-SP tournament over Taça Brasil (a championship that you could won only playing for 4 or 6 matches).

Years later, some politics just signed some papers to make those championships to be considered as Brazilian Championship.

Maybe it would make sense for Roberto Gomes Pedrosa's championships, but Taça Brasil should not be considered more than a Brazilian Cup (Copa do Brasil).

Anyway, I guess you can consider this list but (to be fair), at least the Flamengo's 87 title has to be included though. You can also consider Sport as the champion of 87 but it wouldnt make any difference in terms of players to be selected.

Well it is a very complicated topic to approach all the aspects here but it is part of Brazilian football. Unfortunately only a few people has knowledge enough to talk about it.

Also, the Brazilian football history has been erased constantly by idiots that only think about rivarlery as those political decisions are in favor some clubs and harm others.


Post the Brazil's according to your opinion.


Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:26 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
I'll try to sumarize what I wanna say the best way I can.

First, to understand Brazilian football, it is important to understand the country and the context.

Being a continental country and not well developed in the past, Brazil didnt have enough structured to support a national league. Imagine the whole Europe with bad or no roads, many cities without airports and so on and then try to imagine a league convering the whole territory.

Because of this, Brazil used to have great and long State Championships that used to take the largest part of the calendar. Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo were the most important ones, the strongest leagues.

So, in order to have a Brazilian Championship, on 1922, all country's football federations organized a competition between the states and state's teams were formed (kind of National Teams but from each state).

Imagine a team formed the best players of Flamengo, Botafogo, Vasco, Fluminense, etc. This team was the Seleção Carioca, Federal District at that time, it means the Rio de Janeiro's state team. Another team was formed by the best players of Corinthians, São Paulo, Santos, Palmeiras, Portuguesa, etc, ansld that was the Seleção Paulista (São Paulo's state team). So, each state had its "Seleção".

Weird but true, that was our original Brazilian Championship, and trust me, it was relevant and people used to support those teams. That time we had a big rivarlery between Sao Paulo's state team and Rio de Janeiro's state team. Those teams won almost all the championships played.

Of course those tournaments was never official, most because it wouldnt make sense and wouldnt fit on any federation (association). Imagine FIFA or CBF turning those teams officials, but it doesnt change the fact that those were our national competition at that time. Also, Pelé did 9 goals on those tournaments. Because of this and others tournaments we have a huge discrepancy between his officials and non officials goals. Anyway, that's another subject.

On 1950, Rio and Sao Paulo decided to make a stronger championship combining both states on a tournament (note that they already tried it before on 1933). Finally, the tournament works and it was a succesful tournament (the most well regarded at that time).

On 1959, CBD (now CBF), creates the Taça Brasil tournament, a kind of national cup (same you have in whole European countries), playing only the champions of each state (same as the nowadays Copa do Brasil when it started on 1989). So, this cup was disputed simultaneous with the Rio-Sao Paulo during those years.

With the continuos growing of the other states clubs, mainly Cruzeiro of Tostão, Rio and São Paulo federation decided to expand their championship to 3 more states on 1967 (including Minas Gerais, Rio Grande do Sul and Paraná).

On 68, they added 2 more states, Bahia and Pernambuco and it was like this until 1970 when the tournament ended and give space for the Brazilian Championship organized by CBF.

So, on 1971, is when the National top league in Brazil begins. The CBF took the Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo federations' idea and organize a championship with all Brazil's states.

Since ever, the Brazilians champions were considered from there, 1971. Until some politicians decided to make all Taça Brasil's champions as official Campeonato Brasileiro champions. Also, made of Rio-SP tournament (Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa), only from 1967 to 1970, when more states played, as Campeonato Brasileiro's titles. So those clubs were declared champions in the middle of the night and woke up next day as multichampions clubs.

It was also a way they arranged to make Pelé 6 times Brazilian Champion. But it is another subject too.

It is important to note that Taça Brasil ends only on 68, when clubs were playing with their reserves because of Roberto Gomes Pedrosa (Rio-SP) was the main championship. Thats why Brazil has two champions on 67 and 68.

Also, 87 is a apart chapter when Flamengo was the Brazilian Champion but cannot be considered officially by law because of stupid politics. Anyway, I believe both parts (CBF and "Clube dos 13") have valid arguments, thats why I consider both champions, Flamengo and Sport. But the true championship that time, considered by all, was the one that Flamengo won. You guys can read a little bit more of it on the internet, it is an interesting history, just be carefull from where you read. There are a lot of bad intentions regarding this subject.

Anyway, it is not easy to sumarize Brazilian football history that much. Lots of chapters happened in the meanwhile. Those were just the main points. It is impossible to approach all of them here. Also, some really good debates can be made about all those things.

For example, the egocentric Rio and SP clubs underrated other states for long time and ignored their qualities and growing. Thats why there is a fair angry from the others states against them.

Another example is that players outside Rio-SP, called as the Rio-SP axle, wasnt considered for the National Team. Being the first national teams a combined of Rio-SP players or just one state because of politics fights between the two strongest states. Well, it is also another subject.

Sorry about my English and for not reviewing the text. I hope I could help in anyway with those informations.


Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:10 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
I think :PER: Sporting Cristal (third peruvian force) deserves a AS team.

Maybe :PER: Sport Boys can also be created.


Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:20 pm
Profile WWW
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:28 am
Posts: 3658
Bola Clássica wrote:
I think :PER: Sporting Cristal (third peruvian force) deserves a AS team.

Maybe :PER: Sport Boys can also be created.


Sporting Cristal is in my future plans unless someone else has been already working on this team.


Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:23 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:42 am
Posts: 32
I think it would be cool to have a "Violent All Stars". A team with guys like Chilavert, Materazzi, Keane, Vinnie Jones, Pachamé, Bedoya...

Every game a broken leg :lol: :lol: :lol:


Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:56 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:42 am
Posts: 32
Bola Clássica wrote:
I'll try to sumarize what I wanna say the best way I can.

First, to understand Brazilian football, it is important to understand the country and the context.

Being a continental country and not well developed in the past, Brazil didnt have enough structured to support a national league. Imagine the whole Europe with bad or no roads, many cities without airports and so on and then try to imagine a league convering the whole territory.

Because of this, Brazil used to have great and long State Championships that used to take the largest part of the calendar. Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo were the most important ones, the strongest leagues.

So, in order to have a Brazilian Championship, on 1922, all country's football federations organized a competition between the states and state's teams were formed (kind of National Teams but from each state).

Imagine a team formed the best players of Flamengo, Botafogo, Vasco, Fluminense, etc. This team was the Seleção Carioca, Federal District at that time, it means the Rio de Janeiro's state team. Another team was formed by the best players of Corinthians, São Paulo, Santos, Palmeiras, Portuguesa, etc, ansld that was the Seleção Paulista (São Paulo's state team). So, each state had its "Seleção".

Weird but true, that was our original Brazilian Championship, and trust me, it was relevant and people used to support those teams. That time we had a big rivarlery between Sao Paulo's state team and Rio de Janeiro's state team. Those teams won almost all the championships played.

Of course those tournaments was never official, most because it wouldnt make sense and wouldnt fit on any federation (association). Imagine FIFA or CBF turning those teams officials, but it doesnt change the fact that those were our national competition at that time. Also, Pelé did 9 goals on those tournaments. Because of this and others tournaments we have a huge discrepancy between his officials and non officials goals. Anyway, that's another subject.

On 1950, Rio and Sao Paulo decided to make a stronger championship combining both states on a tournament (note that they already tried it before on 1933). Finally, the tournament works and it was a succesful tournament (the most well regarded at that time).

On 1959, CBD (now CBF), creates the Taça Brasil tournament, a kind of national cup (same you have in whole European countries), playing only the champions of each state (same as the nowadays Copa do Brasil when it started on 1989). So, this cup was disputed simultaneous with the Rio-Sao Paulo during those years.

With the continuos growing of the other states clubs, mainly Cruzeiro of Tostão, Rio and São Paulo federation decided to expand their championship to 3 more states on 1967 (including Minas Gerais, Rio Grande do Sul and Paraná).

On 68, they added 2 more states, Bahia and Pernambuco and it was like this until 1970 when the tournament ended and give space for the Brazilian Championship organized by CBF.

So, on 1971, is when the National top league in Brazil begins. The CBF took the Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo federations' idea and organize a championship with all Brazil's states.

Since ever, the Brazilians champions were considered from there, 1971. Until some politicians decided to make all Taça Brasil's champions as official Campeonato Brasileiro champions. Also, made of Rio-SP tournament (Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa), only from 1967 to 1970, when more states played, as Campeonato Brasileiro's titles. So those clubs were declared champions in the middle of the night and woke up next day as multichampions clubs.

It was also a way they arranged to make Pelé 6 times Brazilian Champion. But it is another subject too.

It is important to note that Taça Brasil ends only on 68, when clubs were playing with their reserves because of Roberto Gomes Pedrosa (Rio-SP) was the main championship. Thats why Brazil has two champions on 67 and 68.

Also, 87 is a apart chapter when Flamengo was the Brazilian Champion but cannot be considered officially by law because of stupid politics. Anyway, I believe both parts (CBF and "Clube dos 13") have valid arguments, thats why I consider both champions, Flamengo and Sport. But the true championship that time, considered by all, was the one that Flamengo won. You guys can read a little bit more of it on the internet, it is an interesting history, just be carefull from where you read. There are a lot of bad intentions regarding this subject.

Anyway, it is not easy to sumarize Brazilian football history that much. Lots of chapters happened in the meanwhile. Those were just the main points. It is impossible to approach all of them here. Also, some really good debates can be made about all those things.

For example, the egocentric Rio and SP clubs underrated other states for long time and ignored their qualities and growing. Thats why there is a fair angry from the others states against them.

Another example is that players outside Rio-SP, called as the Rio-SP axle, wasnt considered for the National Team. Being the first national teams a combined of Rio-SP players or just one state because of politics fights between the two strongest states. Well, it is also another subject.

Sorry about my English and for not reviewing the text. I hope I could help in anyway with those informations.


I'm sorry. That's just not true. It seems to me that you are the one who does not understand the context of Brazilian football at the time.

The "Taça Brasil" was created to decide who would represent Brazil in Libertadores da América. No matter the format of the dispute, the point is that at that time the Taça Brasil was the only national championship, and therefore it is totally legitimate for champions to be considered national champions. Even before the CBF's decision to unify the title, these teams already considered themselves national champions and the media at the time treated them like that, whether you like it or not (so, no, it's not "until some politicians decided to make all Taça Brasil's champions").

I think it's funny that they question the Taça Brasil as a disorganized and unimportant tournament.

How unimportant did it continue to decide which Brazilian team would represent the country in Libertadores until the end?

As without organization, if the dispute formula was very objective (only the champion of each state played, with the representatives of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo only entering the dispute in the final stages, as well as the UEFA and CONMEBOL teams in the world interclub).

A curiosity: the 1979 championship had more than 100 teams, many of them invited by the CBF without ANY criteria, and yet no one questions the 1979 title of Internacional


Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:41 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:42 am
Posts: 32
btw, if you are BR, i really I recommend this book: https://www.saraiva.com.br/dossie-unifi ... -4079581/p
it was even the basis for interested clubs to ask the CBF for official recognition of the titles (because morally they had been recognized for a long time)


Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:48 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
What part of the text is not true? Be more specific.

The currently champion of Brazil Cup (Copa do Brasil) is also a national champion and goes to the Libertadores tournament (so what? What is your point? I didnt get it) Are you going to unify those titles with the Brazilian Championships as well?

Did you heard already about "Copa dos Campeões Brasileiros"? Do you know that it happens on 2000, 2001 and 2002? Do you also know the winner went to Libertadores on the next year? So, how important this tournament is for you? A Brazilian championship as well? Why nobody cares about those championship?

They simply had to have a criteria to choose clubs to play Libertadores and it is obvious they chose a national competition, no matter what how important it was.

You also know that Libertadores wasnt important for the Brazilian clubs during the Taça Brasil time? Do you know that Santos gave up to play Libertadores to play friendly tournaments in Europe?

So what about 1979? I know the championahips were a mess.

Let me ask you a thing. Do you really know anything about Brazilian football or do you only repeat what people say and care if it is good or not for your team?


Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:40 pm
Profile WWW
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:28 am
Posts: 3658
What guilermerr means isn't really about "being right or wrong". It simply is what it is. The Brazilian championship situation of those years reminds me of the Italian one. Serie A as we know it was introduced in 1929-30. Before that, teams played in messy tournaments that had groups with different number of teams. Pro Vercelli won 5 of its 7 national titles between 1908 and 1913, when the number of participants to those tournaments ranged from 4 to 14 and only the 1912-13 had 30 teams. So, what do we do? Do we consider Pro Vercelli's first four titles as non-titles because of those reasons?


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:07 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
I think I have here a simple and good exercise for the non-Brazilian users regarding this topic.

Do you remember when FIFA was thinking about to consider the Uruguay Olympic Games titles (1924 and 1928) as World Cup titles?

Imagine if it was turned official. You guys would just ignored it or you would pass to consider Uruguay as four time World Cup champions?

So, if you have the answer for this question you also have the answer about the Taça Brasil competition.


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:07 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
Interista93 wrote:
What guilermerr means isn't really about "being right or wrong". It simply is what it is. The Brazilian championship situation of those years reminds me of the Italian one. Serie A as we know it was introduced in 1929-30. Before that, teams played in messy tournaments that had groups with different number of teams. Pro Vercelli won 5 of its 7 national titles between 1908 and 1913, when the number of participants to those tournaments ranged from 4 to 14 and only the 1912-13 had 30 teams. So, what do we do? Do we consider Pro Vercelli's first four titles as non-titles because of those reasons?


Ok, I understand your point. But for example, Messi won the last year Ballon D'Or and if you think about that Messi was the best player of the world on 2021 no doubt. So, what matters for you?

You can argue about who was the best in fact or just accept what it is. I prefer to debate and have my own judgment and tell people the truth so they also can have their judments considering the facts.

What about my question about Uruguay situation? How would you consider?


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:20 pm
Profile WWW
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:28 am
Posts: 3658
Bola Clássica wrote:
I think I have here a simple and good exercise for the non-Brazilian users regarding this topic.

Do you remember when FIFA was thinking about to consider the Uruguay Olympic Games titles (1924 and 1928) as World Cup titles?

Imagine if it was turned official. You guys would just ignored it or you would pass to consider Uruguay as four time World Cup champions?

So, if you have the answer for this question you also have the answer about the Taça Brasil competition.


I wouldn't have liked the idea of Olympic champions considered as World Cup champions. However, as I said in my previous post, it is what it is. I guess that national champions "had to be" selected for the history of the federation. Therefore, we may not consider the old Taça do Brazil winning teams as Brasileirão winners but I don't see nothing wrong in considering them as national champions since that was the main national trophy at the time.



Bola Clássica wrote:
Ok, I understand your point. But for example, Messi won the last year Ballon D'Or and if you think about that Messi was the best player of the world on 2021 no doubt. So, what matters for you?

You can argue about who was the best in fact or just accept what it is. I prefer to debate and have my own judgment and tell people the truth so they also can have their judments considering the facts.


Of course it's good to have opinions and share them. However, I don't think the Balon d'Or is really a valid argument here. I mean, that accomplishment in at least the last 20 years has been given most of the times to the most popular player and not the best. The current Balon d'Or is just a circus act. Plus, it's not something gained after winning a tournament but just a price assigned by a bunch of corrupted journalists or whoever they are.


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:23 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:52 am
Posts: 414
Location: Brazil
Quote:
I wouldn't have liked the idea of Olympic champions considered as World Cup champions. However, as I said in my previous post, it is what it is. I guess that national champions "had to be" selected for the history of the federation. Therefore, we may not consider the old Taça do Brazil winning teams as Brasileirão winners but I don't see nothing wrong in considering them as national champions since that was the main national trophy at the time.


Thats what I am talking about. They are national champions for sure but they are not Brasileirão champions. Thats what I am trying to say. So, why unify titles as they were? Taça Brasil wasnt even the main competition at his time (for Fortaleza or Bahia it was, of course) but it was the only one national competition.

Quote:
Of course it's good to have opinions and share them. However, I don't think the Balon d'Or is really a valid argument here. I mean, that accomplishment in the last 20 years at least have been given most of the times to the most popular player and not the best. The current Balon d'Or is just a circus act.


CBF (the Brazilian Federation) is a circus.


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:36 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 162 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.