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This Thread is devoted to Off topic.

Use this topic to talk about everything, in order to avoid clogging the other threads..


Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:50 pm
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Usually the choice (about changing anything in a AS topic) is resolved in a "democratic" way, but then, as you can clearly see, that's not the case in recent discussions.

I can only repeat myself:
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Just post your AS teams filled with players you feel that are representative to the team you are posting (either Club, NT, or whatever).


Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:58 pm
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Why is the Messi thread locked? Is no debate allowed, despite the fact that the current set is completely inaccurate?


Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:10 am
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Messi can't be replicated in PES :idea: :D


Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:16 am
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Defenders in modern football

biondi wrote:
I'm a fan of old days of football, you know real grass on fields, players wouldn't post tons of selfies on socials, they played more because they liked it rather than for the millions (could it be that I idealize the past like in the romantic era ?); anyway when I talk about football with friends or other people a "point" they always say is that back then defenders didn't know how to defend.
As much as I know defenders were always good (just remember Santamaria, Moore, Picchi, Rosetta, Nasazzi, Mauro Ramos and so on); now the real question: do good defeders exist today ?
More than marking or covering now defenders are judged in how good are they at passing, scoring with head or even dribbling if they play on the wings, lets look at what is consider a top defender today: Sergio Ramos, good at passing, scores sometimes but as we know in defending he makes sometimes very bad decisions.
We can also look barely at stats where the only modern player with red defense is Godin but I want to hear other opinions and if I'm the only one who think modern defenders are quite bad at purely defending or no.


Oriello wrote:
Don't know if those guys from the past having travelled in a time machine would actually live up to their legendary hype in modern game.

So much has changed, the referring is far more critical of tackles, you simply can't get away with some of the Gentile challenges he could in the 80s, modern defenders have to be more precise and have less room for error. Similarly the change in the pass-back rule now means you don't have the release valve of just giving the ball to your keeper, so the pressure in possession has more consequences, mental lapses are more costly. Tempo seems to be consistently faster, so potentially more offensive plays that backlines have to deal with per game.

Captain Ramos is considered top defender by mass media due to his titles, don't you see Fixer ranting about Ramos on here for years? I think general consensus on PSD is that he is incorrectly labelled as the best defender in the world. Currently it seems Virgil van Dijk at Liverpool is playing really well, many users are raving about his qualities and vinnie consider's him maybe the best defender to ever play in the EPL.

You have to narrow the range you deem that there were apparently such a plethora of bad ass defenders in this romantic past, as you list Nasazzi (1920s-30s) and Moore (1960s-70s), that's a 30 to 50 year range, so does that mean modern defenders includes Scirea, Baresi and Maldini? Or are you talking about 2008-2018 compared to 1928-1938 and comparing that pool of defenders? Will we find better players in the older era, in a time when the sport was less professional? Did not some Manchester United players from the 50-60s have to work as coal miners to supplement income? Maybe that is why passing/scoring as you mentioned is a big part of modern defenders, since in the past some guys were too busy getting black lung instead of at practice :P.

For the players from eras like pre 1950s, how many of the leagues were populated by a large pool of skilled players, since the money was lacking in the game? The system not yet in place to funnel youth talent and buy and bring together the best talent from all over the world. In my mind the legends of those eras made their names against a lower quality opposition, I just think like with any skills, practice increases competence, so aside from a few outliers, most were underpaid persons who needed to split time doing some other job just to make ends meet, hence less hours devoted to perfecting their skills, to me it seems reasonable that the general quality of all players was at a lower level compared to modern professionals. Hence I think players like Dixie Dean, Meazza, Nasazzi, Biscan may have been great players in their time, but who were their bread and butter opponents? Were the rank and file players they played against weekly in the 1930s equivalent to modern EPL quality or Championship level? All that stupid amounts of money in modern EPL serves to bring the top cream of the crop from every country across the globe, the concentration of skilled professionals at work I find hard to believe was present at the same level in 1930 even to 1980, I think it was around here you sometimes had a few (3?) foreign stars bolster a domestic team (or was that only Serie A with the 3 max rule?)...Really even in the Championship you have players who would be starters in Ligue 1, speaks to the quality present at the second tier of modern English football.

It's very difficult to compare the players since the environments are so different. I actually think if modern Sergio Ramos played in the 1930s he would be hailed as a wizard, how many midfielders passed like he could? Ocwirk was noted for it, would Ramos maybe too stand apart in that period? Surely his elegance on ball and ability to dominate aerially be a shock in the past, how many defenders were noteable to score as much as he does? He would blow peoples minds, his legend could grow to be immense when spoken in modern day, chumming up with Franco in pics lol, he would be the original Beckenbauer haha. Since red/yellow cards did not get introduced till 1960s(?) he would be king at duels on the field lol, the 20 reds he has in his career now would not be possible. :lol:


biondi wrote:
nice points indeed, the only two things I have to say are that with modern time I start with the barcelona and spain domination during 2010-12 when they won everything and everyone started using the tiki-taka; second thing is that red card existed always, in the 30s there was a match between brazil and czech republic with three red cards (and nejedly with a broken leg and planicka with a broken arm).
For Sergio Ramos being a wizard in the 30s probably not, he would have played in midfield and a lot of midfielders had his same skills, he would never have played as a cd since he likes to go attacking and back then the main modules were 2-3-5 or 3-2-5, with a defender attacking the other(s) would have been done too much work


Oriello wrote:
I looked into the red card thing some more, apparently there were "dismissals" of players prior to the introduction of red and yellow cards. The cards themselves/cautions as we know them were introduced in 1970 WC, after in 1962 an English ref, Ken Aston tried to dismiss an Italian after there was fighting between the players, but the player did not understand English and refused to leave not understanding he was being ejected. I wonder how common these dismissals were though before 1970, seen some last man rugby tackles not called lol as a foul, I wonder if it was reserved for violent conduct/fights?

https://www.kaplaninternational.com/blo ... d-red-card
https://www.fifa.com/development/news/y ... 80623.html - articles about Ken Aston and how cards were made official in 1970, but this wiki page lists that in 1966 WC yellow was used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F ... _red_cards

FIFA confirms cautions in 1966 https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/r ... index.html

Haha you'd think FIFA with their billions, they could afford fact checkers and be consistent in what the history of the game was.


Dirty Thirties Ramos maybe might have been dismissed once - does he actually want to brawl without teammate's intervention on his side? Otherwise still think he would tackle like a sloppy maniac and be pretty safe in that period from being expelled, only dislocated an opponent's shoulder not broken any bones yet. ;P


I forgot about those pyramid formations, yeah lol he would maybe never taste being a defender back then, I wonder where a 1930's coach think him best to be played.


Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:42 am
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To be honest I've always hated romanticising older eras of football, people forget about the thousands and thousands of crap players that only existed to kick people, and only focus on the legends from those times. Imagine how many more legendary players there could have been if some butcher of a defender didn't decide to just end people's careers and get away with it? It even came close to happening to Maradona...


Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:59 am
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I knew i couldn't take blondi seriously once he said Rosetta & Nasazzi.

And Oriello pretty much told the truth here

Quote:

Will we find better players in the older era, in a time when the sport was less professional?

For the players from eras like pre 1950s, how many of the leagues were populated by a large pool of skilled players, since the money was lacking in the game? The system not yet in place to funnel youth talent and buy and bring together the best talent from all over the world. In my mind the legends of those eras made their names against a lower quality opposition, I just think like with any skills, practice increases competence, so aside from a few outliers, most were underpaid persons who needed to split time doing some other job just to make ends meet, hence less hours devoted to perfecting their skills, to me it seems reasonable that the general quality of all players was at a lower level compared to modern professionals. Hence I think players like Dixie Dean, Meazza, Nasazzi, Biscan may have been great players in their time, but who were their bread and butter opponents? Were the rank and file players they played against weekly in the 1930s equivalent to modern EPL quality or Championship level? All that stupid amounts of money in modern EPL serves to bring the top cream of the crop from every country across the globe, the concentration of skilled professionals at work I find hard to believe was present at the same level in 1930 even to 1980, I think it was around here you sometimes had a few (3?) foreign stars bolster a domestic team (or was that only Serie A with the 3 max rule?)...Really even in the Championship you have players who would be starters in Ligue 1, speaks to the quality present at the second tier of modern English football.



Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:21 am
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El Capo wrote:
I knew i couldn't take blondi seriously once he said Rosetta & Nasazzi.


This always bugs me, I have no idea how people can say confidently that guys like Nasazzi, Sindelar, Dean etc. were much better than today's legends, when they've literally never watched them play. They have absolutely no evidence they were better apart from "someone said they were good". And we all know that people back then liked to make stuff up, isn't it funny that players only stopped breaking the nets with their shots and scoring somersault goals in cup finals when matches started being shown on TV? :lol:


Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:24 am
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Or dribbling the entire opposition team + the keeper a la R9 :mrgreen:


Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:44 am
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One thing that intrigues me is how people compare players from different eras, and in my opinion you have two options: or you imagine they playing together under the same circunstances and decide who´s better or you simply compare what each one did in his time and sees who is the best.

The first option requires a lot of imagination, knowledge of the sport, the players, the eras, is not an easy task.
The second option is way more simple, football evolves with time like any other sport, of course players from modern eras will always be faster, better prepared, have the matches of the past as reference to become better and better. The same will apply in the future, they will look at football of today and say "look, how naive they were", so this kind of discussion of "who´s better" taking the second option has an expiration date.


Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:51 am
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Judge by yourselves:
https://youtu.be/dbJIqjny2Jk


Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:22 pm
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El Capo wrote:
Judge by yourselves:
https://youtu.be/dbJIqjny2Jk


I ask again: if you don't like the attitude of this forum towards classic players, then why don't you simply join PSD?


Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:31 pm
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gurkenjoe93 wrote:
El Capo wrote:
Judge by yourselves:
https://youtu.be/dbJIqjny2Jk


I ask again: if you don't like the attitude of this forum towards classic players, then why don't you simply join PSD?



Why do we have to pretend those players from the 30s are as good as even players from the 50s? Is it wrong to question their ability at all?


Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm
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Everyone has the right to express their opinion freely, and each must respect the opinion of the other regardless of whether he is right or not, at least this is how i see.

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Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:00 pm
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I found this video interesting:


Very impressive that Hungary had 8 teams in the top 10 at one point, also that Austria had 4 of the top 5 at one point too. Obviously the Hungarian league declined because of the Hungarian revolution and all their best players going abroad, but what happened in the late 50s in Austria that meant their teams massively declined? Was it just regressing back to normal after their two golden eras in the 30s and 50s?


Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:13 pm
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StuartBannigan wrote:
Very impressive that Hungary had 8 teams in the top 10 at one point, also that Austria had 4 of the top 5 at one point too. Obviously the Hungarian league declined because of the Hungarian revolution and all their best players going abroad, but what happened in the late 50s in Austria that meant their teams massively declined? Was it just regressing back to normal after their two golden eras in the 30s and 50s?

Your question made me curious. I thought the reason could be linked with the war but I wasn't sure so I made a research. In fact Austria, just like other nations from near the Danubian river, had suffered the post-war. Austria refused to participate to the 1950 World Cup due to the injuries caused by the war and despite having reached the third place in the following one, this was the last year of the great Austria. The nation basically had incredibly great players before and during the war but never had other ones after the independence.


Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:37 pm
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